Lets talk wide bands

[MalcolmV8]

I've seen chat of wide bands on the forums recently and now I find myself looking for one. It's for the Cobra. My requirements are simple, display a/f ratio on a gauge for me to keep an eye on and also interface with the SCT X3 tuner for data logging for when I'm getting the car tuned.
I've seen guys mention the LC1, dyno jet etc. but not really sure what to pick. As for the gauge itself I'm not to worried about what comes with the kit because I'll be getting a custom gauge from speedhut.com that matches my car.

BTW - this is one of the places I'm looking at wide bands.

http://www.lethalperformance.com/03-04- ... -c-16_3047

and here's a pic of the gauge I plan on getting.

[usmcrp1044]

I like the digital ones myself.

I guess a mechanical one would be easier to keep an eye on without reading a number.
Just kinda memorize where the needle is and then check the number.

I've never used one, but I'm sure they are a great tool when it comes to tuning.

Good luck. And check on that gauge I pm'd you about.

[MalcolmV8]

yeah I want it for tuning and really to keep a check on things as the weather goes from 110 F to 40F and make sure I'm still good. No need to blow up a second motor
Personally I really like the analog gauges and even more so the ones that match my cluster

One trick I've seen on the forums is to install the gauge with the 12 at the top so needle to the left of it is ok, needle to the right and you better let off gas. Something you can see in the corner of your eye under WOT fun. Myself personally under WOT in that car I have to make an effort to look at any gauges as it's all eyes on the road as I hang on to that steering wheel for dear life LOL

Oh I did find that gauge in the garage this weekend that you pm'd me about. Will email you pics tomorrow.

[usmcrp1044]

Do they make some type of a warning light?
Like a low oil pressure light, but just one that works if the wideband goes to high. Would be nice to have a little orange light telling you to back out then to have to check your gauge.

I definitely agree on the not wanting to look at a gauge thing. Anyway, I'll wait for someone that knows about a wideband to respond.
Good luck.

[cgrey8]

I have never heard any compelling info as to what makes one WB controller superior over another other than cost and features. I'm sure there are some objective things that can be said about the construction, accuracy, and reliability. But I've never read an article that delved into each controller with that much detail nor any detail as to how "correctly" the WB controlled the sensor.

So if I was going to buy another WB controller, I would go with the Innovate LC-1 just because I already have one and rather like it. But what directed me to the LC-1 originally was that they are the most feature packed for the lowest price. And as an added bonus, the datalogging software I use will directly communicate with the Innovate LC-1 controller.

But have never actually worked with any other WB controller, I cannot say Innovate LC1 is the best or the one you should go with. What I can say is for what you are doing, the LC1 should work for you. What you'll need is a programmable WB controller. The gauge you are showing displays AFR in a much narrower range than the LC1 reports by default. It ranges from 10-18AFR which most likely correlates to 0-5v linearly. The LC-1 by default is 7.35-22.39 AFRs across a 0-5v range. Thus with the LC1 with default values, the gauge would likely display wrong values. The 0-5v output on the LC1 has the ability to be reconfigured to represent a custom AFR range for this very reason. So if the gauge can't be configured, the WB controller should be.

As for a light to come on, that's a problem. At normal driving conditions, the AFR will be in the 14s and 15s and this is perfectly normal. The gauge has no way of knowing whether you are at WOT or not. So to get a "light" would require that the gauge know throttle position or at least some binary indication of whether the throttle is at WOT or not. The LC1 has 2 analog outputs that both appear to be configurable using the Innovate LM Programmer software that comes with the LC1. Using that 2nd analog output and a rigged up switch to close when you went to WOT, I'd think it possible to concoct some simple circuit that would illuminate an LED if the voltage from the WB controller went too high. I don't know of a product already out there that does this though.

[MalcolmV8]

Hey Chris, thanks for the input. I need to go back and find the threads I'd found in the past on wide bands. One thing I do recall is that some of them use common bosch sensors in the exhaust that are relatively cheap to replace. I think $50. Where as other brands used a proprietary sensor running a lot more. I think I read as much as $160.

Good point on the gauge. I'll have to call speedhut and see how that works. I know they build custom gauges so they may be able to supply me one to work with any brand wideband. The person who gave me that pic is running a dynojet wideband.

[cgrey8]

I'm not aware of any WB setups that don't use the Bosch LSU4.2 sensor but I do know there are some other WB mfgs out there. The Bosch LSU is the defacto standard WB sensor out there. It's used in aftermarket WB kits as well as on stock vehicles that use a WB(s) instead of a standard HEGO(s). I'm fairly sure VWs use that same sensor...same connector too I believe.

Here's the article where various WBs were tested.
Air Fuel Sensor Shootout
There's been lots of controversy over the accuracy of this test since they used "test gas" instead of an actual engine. And they purposely wore the sensors with leaded gas. So there's been lots of complaints about their methodology. But a lot of their points are still valid and still worth the read if you are considering purchasing a WB. And the LC-1 was their top pick for multiple reasons.

[MalcolmV8]

Yes I will most definitely be purchasing one. I need it so I can use a remote tuner via email. I found this on speedhut's website about their a/f wb gauge I posted a pic of above.

Right out of the box the programmable wide band gauge is factory setup to work with Innovates LC-1 and Dynojet's Commander Wide Band A/F controllers with no calibration necessary. The gauge also has a manual custom setting mode to allow you to dial in any wide band sensor voltage output from 0-5 volts. This allows the gauge to easily work with all other wide band OEM/aftermarkets sensors.

Setable warning LED. Set low and high conditions.

Peak recall shows both min and max peak on gauge.

See the way I'm going to tune the car is by having someone who really knows the 03 Cobras write me a tune and email it to me. I'll flash the Cobra's computer and then drive and datalog and send them the output and they will fine tune from there on out. Right now I'm leaning towards Rick at Amazon Racing (amazonracing.com). The SCT xcal3 tuning device costs $379 and Rick will sell it to me for $399 and include LIFETIME tunes on the Cobra at no extra charge. He said I can switch blowers, put on a turbo or do what ever I want and he'll retune for as long as I own the car and provided I don't let anyone else play around with the tune. If I already had a tuning device Rick charges $175 for the lifetime tune.

Next in line is Justin at http://www.vmptuning.com who also come highly recommended on the Cobra forums. He charges $250 for the custom tune and it includes 5 datalog readings as well as 5 changes to the initial tune. He said he's written so many 03 Cobra tunes that is more than enough unless we run into mechanical problems with the car. He said he'd match Rick's $399 and include a tuner but he won't do lifetime tuning.

Thanks for the link - going to read it now.

[MalcolmV8]

That was a great link Chris and just the fact that the Innovate unit could self calibrate or detect a bad sensor alone seems to make it a great choice. I think that's the one I'll be getting.

[MalcolmV8]

Well finally got one. Ordered an LC-1 wideband and sensor. Any preferred location on installing the sensor? I've heard some guys say to just use one of the O2 bungs after the cats and turn off the second pair of O2s in the tune. Is that a good location for the wideband? I would have thought it should be closer to the exhaust manifold?

[cgrey8]

Well finally got one. Ordered an LC-1 wideband and sensor. Any preferred location on installing the sensor? I've heard some guys say to just use one of the O2 bungs after the cats and turn off the second pair of O2s in the tune. Is that a good location for the wideband? I would have thought it should be closer to the exhaust manifold?

Well, let me try this again. I just tried to post but it timed out and my post failed.

Ideally, you want the WB located as close to where the stock HEGO closest to the engine is if that's possible. If you can't get it there, then you need to make sure it is as far from the CAT as possible, and not downstream of the CAT. At WOT, it doesn't matter nearly as much where the WB is relative to the HEGO as long as it is upstream from the CAT. However while cruising, the exhaust flow is much much less and there's a delay between the WB and the HEGO if they aren't located really close together. That's less of a concern if you aren't datalogging the EEC obviously.

Again, you want to make sure you are not downstream of a CAT. When mounted downstream of CATs, the WB will read leaner than actual. The amount it errors lean gets worse as the AFRs approach the range the CATs are most effective which is at Closed Loop cruising loads.

Hope that helps.

[MalcolmV8]

That does help. Thanks. I'll be data logging for a tuner to tune my car so yes accuracy is important. I'll have a bung welded in as close to the oem sensor near the manifold as I can.

[MalcolmV8]

Well I got my LC-1 today and it appears to have a 9 pin serial connector to hook up to the laptop. Humm are they for real lol. I mean do they even make laptops with serial ports now days? everything's USB. Do they have a USB version or an adapter or something?

[cgrey8]

Nope, they are still working on their USB version of a WB controller. So that means you'll need a USB-232 adapter. I keep mine connected and stashed under the carpet along with a USB hub that has 2 other USB devices on it. That way the only thing I have to connect is the USB hub line. That works out a lot better than having 3 USB dongles sticking out from the carpet all the time.

[MalcolmV8]

Ah ok. I found this online. Seems like they should include something like this in the kit if they aren't building USB versions yet.

http://www.usbgear.com/USBG-4.html